I just stumbled upon an interesting article in New Music Strategies debating whether it’s a healthy practice for bands to pay to play in venues or festivals. The issue exposed in the post is that a certain big UK music industry event, the Surface Unsigned festival, which is in fact a battle of the bands, allowed bands to sign up only if they could pre sell 25 tickets at 6 pounds each (more or less $12). P2P (pay to play) is common practice for promoter and venues, whereby they do you a favor by letting you perform in their venues – but is that favor worth the price you’re paying? In some scenarios it could make sense, like trying to break in a venue’s regular rotation of bands, but it should be a well prepared and detailed business decision. You can see it as part of your promotion budget, but don’t expect most club owners and promoters to give a doggie’s arse about your expectations: they’ll mostly just want in on as much money as you can give them.
Daley – www.prunkel.blogspot.com
Would love to have your comments on the matter.
Woof.
[...] Gigdoggy on the pay to play aspect. [...]
While I can understand that P2P is not what we all want, we should keep in mind a few things.
Bars and Clubs are in the business of selling alcohol with using music as the draw. If a live band doesn’t draw, the club or bar makes no money and will eventually close down. I guess one way some bars or clubs are getting around this is to have P2P. While I do think this is a pain in the ass, it does put some of the financial responsibility onto the bands to draw. I know some venues here in Toronto have a bar minimum where the bar needs to make a certain amount of alcohol sales for the evening. If the sales fall short of this, the band is responsible for making up some or all of the difference. Again, putting some financial responsibility back onto the bands.
For myself, I often try to set up shows with3 or 4 other bands during the afternoon and early evening. (Most of our following are above 35 years old which means jobs,kids, and earlier to bed). Most clubs and bars don’t want to deal with this set up so I end up renting a venue to hold the events. So far I’ve always broken even and have had money left over for the bands. So no troubles.
Wilton
The only time a performer should play for free is when it somehow benefits them in the long run, such as opening for ZZ Top at any kind of venue or a Benefit. These 4 to 5 band a night things around the U.S. has got to stop.
The only reason people are not going to these bars is because they do not have a reliable schedule of good and tight entertainment. Playing your life away doing 45 min. sets all over town does not develop what a band is about (mutual vision, letting people know what your about like they would if you played for 4hrs.)
Up until 7 years ago in my area (Chicago) common pay was $700 to $400 per 4 hr. night with high attendance and it was common to book 4 to 10 nights a month. Now many of the same bars have 4 to 5 bands a night and slim turnouts at best. The better bands have gone to less nights in wider areas, and $400 being tops.
I even met a band we hired to open for us that couldn’t believe we play 4 hrs. routinely, they only had 10 tunes they knew.
If you play for free you are shooting yourself and the rest of us in the foot. They will never hire you for money once it’s known you’ll play for nothing. Thanks. –Ron
I was in LA in the 80s when P2P first got started there. The first and most obvious problem with P2P is that the bands that perform in the clubs become the ones that can fork out $1000 instead of the best bands in the area. The fact is that club owners simply got lazy and “clever”, realizing that they can cash in on the reputation of the club – a “prestige venue” – to squeeze thousands of dollars out of the musicians instead of making sure they had the best bands around and promoted the hell out of them. So instead the bands pay them, whoever shows up pays them as well, and the reputation of the club suffers because the overall quality of the acts goes down as well, since there is no longer any quality control – only who pays out to the club. So the club scene deteriorates and the club owners blame the economy and tell the bands they can’t afford to pay them and they continue with P2P.
When I left LA in 1990 they had just started doing P2P with acoustic artists that they were booking to perform while the bands were tearing down and setting up!
There are times when performing for free is valid – for a benefit or charity or fundraising concerrt or as community service – I think playing for free in any for-profit venture is taking unfair advantage of the musicians, no matter what anyone says about “exposure” – it’s just a ruse to get something for nothing, but plenty of people will go ahead and do it anyway and it’s only personal opinion on whether they should. But to Pay to Play is outrageous and hurtfull to the music scene as a whole and should be shunned.
I have not seen this scourge take hold in the SF Bay Area, where I now live. And any time I see it in any form, I do my best to kill it before it can reproduce.
Steve
We have been struggling with such issues in Montreal since I’ve been in the scene. As part of a metal band we have to pay to get a minimum of people to our venue.
The biggest problem with P2P is that the venue owner’s usually sit on it and expect the bands do to the job for them …as long as they sell a minimum of tickets OR get the amount they ask for, they won’t bother much about the attendency to the gig. So much for business managing, they just don’t seem to see the impact this has on their bar or venue, and also onto the scene that is trying to promote itself.
I would like to hear an opinion on something :
I have been producing shows and been promoting my various projects with always a good or at lest deacent result. I use P2P myself but I give something in exange ! If I ask a band to sell a minimum of tickets or to get a certain amount of money to play my events, I have to offer a counterpart to that. As it been a global thing that it’s been less and less popular for venues and promoter not to have contracts sing regarding BOTH side of the medal ?! If the band fullfill his side of the deal I promise good coverage with fanzines, local newspapers, indie radio and somethime major radio stations as well. Also scheduling is VERY important to me and their is none of those ”lets-get-5-bands-a-night-to-fill-the-bill” to make sure I break even. Max is alway 3 for me and they have to be good, I want the crowed to remember it as an event that they WILL attend the next time around. Is this something that seems to be disapearing ? I beleive so, but as a producer and manager of my different projects, I would expect more than ”nothing” from venues and promoters that have been addopting a very safe and not promising way of doing business : win win for them a a big tap in the back for the musicians ?!
I would like to hear if this seems to be common in the music business of today or if it’s just me ?
Justin
Hey Justin, from Montreal here too! :)
Personally I’m all for P2P. Actually it is the only way a local “original” band can play a quality gig. You pick the place, you know exactly what’s your budget, and you know how much you need to draw to cover your expenses. And you don’t need to pay anything to these booking agents that whine on their blogs about some of the bands they had to deal with.
The only problem with P2P that I see (and it is a necessary evil) is that when you “split the bill” you never know if the other band(s) will draw, no matter how much they assure you that bringing 50 people is not a problem for them.
As for the venue having to do their share I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes it would be business smart for them to create their own draw but at the same time it’s not our business. Our business is to rent a room with a bar, a P.A. and a soundguy. Hey that’s why the loft concerts are becoming so much popular – it’s your practice room and your concert venue at the same time and you can basically sell your own booze (since it’s like a private party).
Anyway.. let’s see what happens in the next 20 years… this is a very interesting time. ;)
Hey people,
thx for your input! GigDoggy too is from Montreal !! So we humbly salute you.
Den, I like this idea of ‘loft concerts’, had never really thought about that. Can you rent lofts for a night or are you implying someone of the band, or a very close friend has a loft to play in?
I can totally imagine the atmosphere that can come from playing in such a place. And you got the big open space. Sound must be kind of hard to adjust but im sure it makes up for a good show.
you guys hosting any loft concerts soon? Would love to attend.
As for P2P, well i already gave my opinion about that in the post. I strongly believe it has to be business move and not just another random concert. If its a business move then everything has to be perfect for your band, meaning if the other bands dont fit your style or image or whatever dont hop on the band wagon jsut for the experience or exposure etc.
Mruff to all.
Hey guys, another Montreal-er here :)
A friend told me about this loft concert a while back, somewhere around St-Henri – there are lots of industrial lofts around that area, with 4m ceilings and basically no-one to complain about the noise.. Anyways the guys living in the loft organized these shows from time to time, I think tickets were 5$, and the place was packed that night with 80-100 people. A lot of people were partying in the equally-huge corridor, it was really a blast. There were 3 or 4 bands playing that night, and it really felt like something special to be in a “private” setting, but with all these people that you knew through someone else, somehow it was just very conducive to meeting and to talking with everyone.
“The Pound” is also a loft-venue, and if you’ve never been, it’s definitely worth a trip – they organize open-mics every thursday, and the guys who live there also are definitely doing something for the music scene here in Montreal (377 Richmond Street).
Hope to see you there!
Completely agreed with the “business” view. Unfortunately most bands in Montreal or anywhere else think that playing as much as they can (in the same city) will get their name around. Not IMHO. :)
As for the loft concerts, my brother’s band (they play russian jazz rock) rents a big loft where their practicing spot is basically like a stage. They also built a little bar and a small smoking room, it helps that they also have a restroom inside the loft. They basically hold conserts every month where they invite different (russian) acts to headline. They have their regular draw of 50-60 people. And the sound as you suggested is actually very good since they were lucky enough to have somebody donate a couple of 500 kw EV speakers with a sub. :)
So far this is the only place I know of that can be considered the old fashioned venue where a tour band comes to play to a local audience without having to promote because the venue promotes itself (they have a website and emailists dedicated just for the venue, not the band) and get gas money along with a place to sleep.
I understand why we don’t see these loft concerts growing in – the person who started it all had to go quite deep in the minus before they started getting their money back.
Yep the Pound is definitely a loft type gig. My wishlist for the Pound would be a better soundsystem and a safer bigger stage. The drumkit is also a lil rusty. Either than that, great crowd, great location. And I’m sure something can be arranged there for the gas money for the out of town bands.
I am just starting to research this P2P. I am new to having gigs, just started in an old theater. there is nothing to do in our town, it is very small. the first 2 gigs that I have had, I have lost $$. the first was a 5 band showcase benefit. the second I paid the bands (3) to cover their expenses. these were mostly local bands. I had a sponsor, but they have dropped after the 2nd loss. I just can’t get bodies into the venue. the bands have done nothing to help, one of the bands from the last show promised me a draw of 50… we got a whopping “0″. So, would having these bands sell tickets be the same as p2p? I thought that if my cover was $10 for 3 bands, I could sell the bands 50 tix each at let’s say $8. that way, they could make some profit and I would get bodies that might return. We rent a very good sound system, have great theatrical lights, sound engineer, hospitality… they get a good deal, I just feel that they should also have some of the responsibility. Any input on this would be very welcome. I just want to have a good venue, and without some help with $$ it will never happen. I might also mention that I am not being compensated, I am doing this to build a scene in our area. Thanks in advance.
There are a number of ethical problems with this P2P thing. In one of the comments above, the onus was put on the bands to draw enough customers into a nightclub so they could get paid; but does that make sense? Who’s risk should it be? The band should be hired for what they do, not because it’s somehow in the band’s interest that a given nightclub “makes it” or not.
And the inanity doesn’t stop there. More and more venues are also saddling the bands with doing their own advertising – which of course means advertising for the venue – on the band members’ dime. It never used to be like that. Venues used to insist on doing their own promo because they knew their audience and wouldn’t let the fact that advertising cost a little money get in the way of their pride in their own club.
The whole thing has gotten out of hand, and is driving working musicians into the poor house. Hopefully this dialogue will raise the debate and start to change things for the better.
BTW I just ran into a group that is fighting against ripping off performing musicians, called “Pay The Band”. They are at http://paytheband.blogspot.com/ if anyone is interested.
[...] by being cornered into playing for free or paying to play. We covered a topic on ‘Should bands pay to play at gigs‘ and got some interesting comments on whether it was a healthy practice or not. On another [...]
Interesting topic gents. My name is Rob from California U.S. and I play bass in the Metal band Nativeburn. I am also a partner in a promotional company D4D Entertainment. I was just having this discussion/debate with a couple of my band mates. This is not an easy argument by any means. The debate is regarding the fact that each band member has to sell only 10 tickets each, each ticket sells for $10 each. Cost at the door is $15. Argument is one of our bandmates feels strongly that with a higher cost ticket we will get less people at our show versus say a $5 ticket. With a lower cost entrance fee, more heads will come through the door to see our performance thus spending more at the bar, and everybody is happy. OK, valid point.
Now let me explain some of the details behind that $10 ticket. Each person that walks through the door will receive 1 free CD from each band. This show has 5 bands therefore you will receive 5 free CD’s. Each one of the bands though unsigned, are hot and up and coming so by 2009, at least half of the bands on this bill will be signed. (One of the bands was on the Vans Warped Tour and another just opened for 5 Finger Death Punch last Saturday). We printed over 1000 high quality/glossy fliers which contains each bands myspace link on the back. Not to mention posters that are posted all over town and the myspace flyer version that will be spammed to over 5,000 various profiles. The bands get to perform at one of the biggest and nicest venues Central Valley California has to offer. It has a full bar PLUS it’s all ages! At the end of the show, each ticket will be eligible for a drawing. The prize is a custom made guitar by Guaridan Guitars. Not to mention, we are running radio commercials where each band is plugged on one of our local rock stations for 2 weeks during prime time plus each band will be featured/interviewed on another rock station. Plus there’s more……….for every ticket that is sold, the person selling them gets to keep 10% or $1. Or they can eat the dollar and just sell it for $9 each. We also have a professional photographer taking pics of each band; no charge to the bands. So I throw the question out there to all of you………..do you feel that the amount of promo the bands will receive for this 1 show, is worth the value of selling 10 tickets?
I also failed to mention expenses and costs which I, the promo company is responsible for and do not charge the bands any extra for them. That would include sound, security, design, printing & photography to name a few.
So tell me your thoughts!
I would like to invite all of you to see a sample of this flyer along with some of the events we have put on. The show is Dec 12th, 2008 and is held at The Starline. If you or anybody you know is touring through California, hit us up.
http://www.myspace.com/d4dentertainment
If you would like to chk out some samples of the metal band I’m in, chk out http://www.myspace.com/nativeburnlive
Cheers!
Rob
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We have the same problem here in Sao Paulo (Brazil). We have played two times in this condition and were never do this again.
P2P kills the scene and buries the bands. Please, have some self steem and don´t P2P.