A bad gig-sharing experience

We often talk about the benefits of trading, swapping and sharing gigs with other bands. But it sometimes just works out for the worst. Take this little story told by Tim Cole, bassist for the cover band 421 (www.myspace.com/421) as a series of ‘not dos’, or things to be aware of when you consider sharing gigs with other bands.

I know a lot of original bands in bigger areas and music scenes do this (sharing gigs), but we are fairly new to it. In theory, we would like to do 100% all original tunes, but with the way the local bars and clubs work around here, this isn’t really possible. We decided to do a bunch of popular cover tunes, but still have no desire in doing a full 4 hour night by ourselves. We have hooked up with a couple local bands to share shows with, but it seems as if we are getting the short end of the stick here.

We have had this particular band on 3 gigs of ours so far, all of which were paying gigs. Lately, they have been getting quite lazy with it. Last weekend, they only brought their guitars, and drumsticks. We have top notch gear across the boards, so I am thinking they would rather just use our stuff than bother bringing their own, this sucks in my opinion.

The played approximately 40 minutes each night last weekend, and left us with the bulk of the night to fill, we covered it, but not a huge deal. When we got there Saturday, the bar owner informed us that the other band had talked them into us doing a set, and then letting them play their set (so there are more people there), and then have us finish the night…..I feel my toes being stepped on a bit, after all, this is OUR gig, not theirs.

Then there is the money issue. The total gig paid $850 for the weekend. $300 of which goes to our sound, which leaves a balance of $550. Even though they covered only approximately 80 minutes of the 8 hour gig weekend, and they used all of our gear and sound crew, they expected us to give them $300. After some negotiating, and a little bit of arguing, they left with $150……which is about $150 more than I would of liked to give them, since they contributed next to nothing on the time filled, and brought none of their own gear…..didn’t thank us, or offer to help set up or tear down either.

The ONE gig they have set us up on with them was horrible. A nasty little dive, with no lights, and the entire sound system consisted of a stage monitors, and 2 mics….it was the bars karaoke system….a whopping 200 watts at that. This gig paid us NOTHING, we even had to pay $3 per beer there, and we used 100% of our own gear.

The biggest thing that bites my britches here is that those guys are really beginning to step on toes here. They are selling themselves to clubs using our gear, sound reinforcement, and sound guy to TAKE our best gigs. We have already been informed they snaked themselves into a local rock radio “rock night” we did last time, and are also hearing rumors of them possibly taking the opening spots for the nationals in a club we are regulars in, even though my band’s management is the booking agent on it.

We were scheduled to do a gig with them again this weekend, (another on our tab I might add) but due to a double booking, we got cancelled. We are supposed to go back to the place in 2 weeks for the club’s “grand re-opening”, which will include a live radio broadcast. If I have anything to do with it, they will have absolutely nothing to do with this deal…..they have used us long enough!

My question to you guys that regularly trade gigs is what is common practice for this kind of deal? As an opening band on someone else’s gig, what is expected for pay? How does the gear use of others work?

This whole idea is really pissing me off.

(This is our fourth quote article on gig-sharing/swapping. You can read the first three by clicking on ‘quotes’ next to ‘Gig Swapping’ in the Gigdoggy index)

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What’s the biggest pain of booking a gig?

I think the biggest pain is a booking guy at a club who doesn’t know how to put together a show. In my old band, which was basically incubus meets pearl jam, we were booked with so many bands that didn’t mesh with our style at all. Extreme metal, weird indie, alt-country (not too bad a match, but not too good a match, either)…

We were so often booked with bands that had mutually exclusive fanbases. Our mainstream rock sound would bore some of the more out there music fans, and the out there bands would drive away our mainstream fans. Instead of bands that can share fans and have a great show together, you get a bunch of smaller, fractured crowds that show up for the 30 or 45 minutes their band is playing and then split because the other bands on the bill don’t interest them. It’s not good for the bands and it probably isn’t ideal for the clubs, either.

Jimb213

It’s not too tough to book a gig if you have a good band to start with and can do a good show in whatever niche of the biz you happen to be gigging in, and your band has done the promo and leg work that the band should be doing. The downside is when you deal with shyster club owners who will try to screw you out of what they promised to pay, contracts not withstanding in these clown’s eyes, even if you played to a crowd that bought a whole lot of beer and other drinks to cover the venues rent for the month!

However on the balance I’ve had more good gigs than bad ones. It’s tougher for younger bands and their whatever niche market they play to, but presuming that your band practices hard to be masters of the music they play, and a willingness to work just as hard at promoting yourselves and taking care of your buisness, it should pay off eventually in terms of paying gigs.

Anonymous

I dislike the business aspect of music. I just want to show up, get paid and get laid. Too bad that’s not the real world. I guess the hardest part in booking gigs is breaking through the cliques and people barriers. There are circuits here (like everywhere) where a rotation of bands dominate the booking. Breaking into that little circle is the challenge. First you have to actually hang out at the venues, get to know the decision makers and and maybe even schmooze them a little. This is why agents were invented.

Jimmy Danger – www.myspace.com/thefarleys

No, it’s not a pain to book a gig. Put together an amazing band, practice your asses off, put on a a great show, and people will want to book you.
If anything I would say the biggest pain is waiting to get paid. It sucks when a bar doesn’t close until 4:00am and you have to wait around for the club owner to get your money.

www.myspace.com/tomcatcombat

Breaking into new cities. It sucks when you don’t have a demo CD, don’t have video of your band on stage, and every club owner in town tells you “Well, I’ll come check you out when you play somewhere in town”.

Anonymous

The biggest pain, hum that would be playing the gig! I personally love the chase trying to get the gig more than the playing. I guess I should have been a manager, but theres nothing more satisfing than getting that gig that I thought I wouldnt get. Its all in the chase.

Ha Ha, I would also say negotiating the price is a pain.

Locally we have a couple of corporate clubs, meaning that one company owns 7-8 local live music venues. These are good music clubs cause all of them feature music 3-5 nights a week. They have a lock on some bands in the area. We are playing one a couple of times simply to get at the built in audience and some of our audience has requested that we play there. But these guys have decided to cut what was already a cut rate for gigs. We are getting $300 and have to play a thursday night to get a saturday night gig the month after.

The manager told me that as one of their bands we would be on some sort of probation for 6 monthes and then at the end of that time they would probably give us a $50 a night pay raise. But the word from other bands recently in their loop is that they are cutting the pay back. I asked the manager what is top pay and he said $500. I know a couple of the better drawing bands that play there and they’ve confirmed this price. I have procured a couple of outside sponsors for gigs who I call on when we get in these situations, to supplement our pay. One is a car dealership and with his economy I’m scared I will lose his involvement before long. I don’t know how or why decent cover bands even play gigs for $300 a night. In our case we have band members coming from 3 other counties and when I add up everyone’s gas just to be there weve already burned $120.

Then they dont have a tab for the band, we have to pay full price for food and drinks, which will burn another $70-100 dollars. In the end we may clear 80-100 dollars off the bar’s pay, split 5 ways thats 20 dollars for 4 hrs of gig time, 3 hrs of getting there and setting up time, or basically 8 hrs. That means we are making around $2.50 an hour for our time.

Now as stated before in my band’s case we will make more from outside support than from the clubs support, so I’m not that worried about it. We need the club on our resume and also are trying to get their patrons to follow our band which shouldn’t be hard since all the other bands playing there kind of have a crappy attitude cause they aren’t making enough to be there.

So to answer the question again, when you are asked how much you charge, thats the crappiest part. You don’t want to lose a gig over $50 bucks but you don’t want to leave anything on the table. In my area the typical pay for a band is $400 or some give you $100 a man. Strangely we are getting calls from some really small places and they arent balking at paying $650 a night, whereas the big clubs dont want to pay.

John Wilder – www.myspace.com/aintyomama1

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Q&A with The Los Dos Bros (part 2): booking agents and club owners

Last week we posted part 1 of our Q&A with The Los Dos Bros where they had a chance to explain their methods for booking and securing gigs. Now we give you part 2 focused more on dealing with booking agents and club owners.

GD: Do you guys work with a booking agent?

LDB: Having a booking agent is, obviously, awesome.  We had an agent in 2007, and after booking ourselves for 3+ years it was a great relief… although now we are without an agent again.  This year I was playing as a sideman in Louis XIV which led to The Los Dos Bros supporting them on the second leg of their US tour… something that probably wouldn’t have happened unless, well, I was playing in their band. It is very difficult to get an agent, probably harder than getting a record deal… most want you to have an established route where you can guarantee commissions for the agent… so it is back to the basics, band 101, establishing a fan base!  And that means booking yourself!

GD: And how do you manage bookings by yourselves?

LDB: Someone in the band usually has business skills, or at least the knowledge of making business happen on the phone… maybe someone is a telemarketer or did sales in the past… remember, this is basically a sales role.  You are qualifying, and closing a potential client, in this case, the promoter or club owner.  So find the person in the band that is comfortable doing the research and picking up the phone and making connections through myspace, and email.

In our case, the two of us, Derric and myself, do the booking.  I handle California and Derric handles rest of the western region (AZ, CO and NM)… so it is fair, we split the work duties (cause it is a lot of work!).  The agent that we had in 2007 was essentially a consultant to us starting in 2004.  He taught us the best routes, and the best places to play where we could establish a working relationship with club owners that understood the dynamics of building successful clubs or restaurant/bars that feature music.

Again, as you learned from our earlier discussions, we wanted to develop a route off the beaten path that we could repeat every 6-8 weeks… starting out with the club owners was of course difficult, having to prove on the phone that we were a band with enough material (enough to play 2-3 hours, cause again, these were the type of places we were playing), a band that understood that covers were critical (people want to dance) and at the same time having strong original material, a band with good sound equipment (most of these places don’t have their own sound), a band that would show up on time and not take 2 hour breaks… thus, where action speaks louder in this world, it was a sales pitch.  And we closed a lot of business cause we sold ourselves at a high level, came across professionally, and at the end of the day delivered on our promise.

So again, someone that can sell the band on the phone, having the necessary amount of music to play (which means a lot of practicing on the front end), a reliable tour vehicle, responsible band members, and the desire to work harder than you probably ever will in life (while barely breaking even).

This scenario is not going to work for everyone… if you are a punk band, or hard rock band, or psyche rock, or just weird, well,  this plan won’t work for you.  The types of places that we play tend to air on the Americana, pop and country side of the table… to get people dancing, country is always the answer… i don’t care if people hate country music, if they are drunk in a bar, and there are hot girls dancing, everyone will be out on the floor swiggin’ beers and gettin’ naughty.  We learned to master the country cover, people eat it up… and then when we play our originals, they actually listen, and many end up buying the CD.  This is not to say that country is the only answer, find your niche, and deliver a song that everyone knows, you will thank me for it.  And to boot, making people have fun will lead to private gigs (and festivals), cause people want to hire bands that can get people in a bar having fun.

GD: How about club owners? How do you deal with those guys?

LDB: Club owners are selling alcohol, not music.  Getting people to drink is key… we always sold the shot.  Calling out from stage that it was time for a shot, well it led to most in the bar ordering shots.  Yes, after playing 2-3 hours of music, drinking, we usually ended up drunk at the end of the night.  But after doing this for 3 years, we were a pretty kick ass band that can get people moving if the night calls for it.  Nothing like mixing in your ballads after a kick ass county bender, folks actually listen.  So club owners love us, and they always continue to book no matter what, we deliver a good time, every single time.  Continuing to play these types of gigs is of course not our goal in life, but it was the means to the end.  We were able to negotiate more money with club owners the longer we stayed with them (we were loyal, once we picked our place in every town, and liked it, we stayed with that bar, exclusively, which was part of the initial pitch with owners), and eventually we were getting free food, all the alcohol we could drink, and in many cases, hotel rooms.

GD: Any mruffin conclusions?

LDB: So to recap, ya gotta do the research to establish your route (and keep it within a days drive of your home base), make the connections with the bars/clubs/restaurant, get the gig, have a kick ass band, deliver 2-3 hours of high quality music (and don’t forget covers), make people drink, have fun, sell CDs and merch, meet the people (go out and introduce yourselves, make connections, this will lead to private and corporate gigs), and repeat!

They are The Los Dos Bros:

www.thelosdosbros.com
www.myspace.com/thelosdosbros
www.sonicbids.com/thelosdosbros

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Gig promotion strategies with “Ain’t Yo Mama” (part 1)

Had a little chat John Wilder, guitarist of Ain’t Yo Mama, on his band’s gig-promotion strategies. This is how they do it.

How they deal with concert promotion:

I approach club owners different than most people. I’m not looking for a gig for a hundred bucks in their club. I’m looking for a venue to hold a show in. Most of the time I get the venues for the door. Some resist and I have to eat crow.

1. The first thing I do after getting a date at a venue is come there one Saturday night between 11pm and 1am and see who the party girls are. I get to know them and give them a couple of t-shirts, some stickers, and a cd. I tell them to wear the t-shirts to all the clubs they hang in particularly the venue we are playing in. I go in the men’s restroom and put stickers above all the urinals, and instruct the girls to do the same in the woman’s, and also to put them in any restroom they happen to go to.

2. weeks before the show I go visit the local newspaper and inquire about running some adds for the gig. Then I ask for a free story or writeup in the paper, if you buy a couple of adds they will do whatever you want and papers need special interest stories to fill space.

3. We make up large posters for the show and place them in Wal-Marts, grocery stores, high traffic mall areas and if we can get away with it around other clubs or venues.

4. We are developing an email list, and  everyone I see or meet I mention it to them.

5. I also call the local chamber of commerce office and inform them of what is going on.

6. The weekend before the show I take piles of flyers to my party-girls and have them plaster them on cars that are in the parking lots between 12-1am, I figure this is the peoples cars I need to get at.

You have to take a shotgun approach to getting people. If you are just starting you can count on friends, but over time no matter how good you are they will get tired of going to the shows. I catch a lot of flack about being a sexist on here, but I give 90% of my personal attention to the females to get the word out. Why cause if you can get the hot girls the guys will follow, did everyone read that? Bring the women and the men will follow.

I’m working on a bigger show for later this fall where we will start using radio ads, also I have some friends that own a furniture business that may, and Im keeping my fingers crossed, they may sponsor us and pay for advertising and provide us with a TV or Appliance to give away at the shows. In my case the Band is called Aint Yo Mama, before the last set we are having the AYM “HOT MAMA” contest, we pick 5 of the best looking women in the house get them on stage and judge them by crowd response with our soundman’s db meter. The winner would then draw a ticket out of the bucket for door prizes like the TV or appliance.

If you are in the music business somehow you have to separate yourselves from the pack. It doesn’t matter how good you music is or isn’t, what matters is getting attention to your band.

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What bands should know about playing in clubs (1)

“I’ve been in a number of bands in the Chicago area through the last 12 years, and I’ve played a lot of clubs and had both great and not so great experiences.

But from the small cafes to the Metro and Double Door, one thing will always be true: Venues are in it for the money. They are businesses. That’s what they do. Undoubtedly, there are places with people who run them who genuinely care about the music and the musicians, and who will treat you fair and treat you well. But the chances that you’ll run into a straight ahead business mindset are far greater.

The key to playing the bars and scene in Chicago is to make your expectations realistic. Any venue in the city is just that. A space. But it’s a space that is just as easy to use to your advantage as it is for them to use you.

Playing The Elbo Room on a Tuesday night at 11pm is not going to make you a star. It probably won’t even make you $50. But if you know that before you play, and you go in wanting to play a show and rock out anyway, you’re going to have a good time.

I’ve played the Elbo Room and The Wise Fool’s and Lilly’s and a host of other bars to audiences of 75+ and audiences of less than ten. And I’ve never had a bad experience, because I knew what I was getting myself into.

I wish I could make music for a living, and I admire anyone who can. But we’re not going to make money from these bars and clubs. And badmouthing them isn’t going to change much of anything – because we’ve been doing it for at least ten years. I wonder how many fewer posts there would be on this board if we all just realized that smaller clubs and bars in this city are pretty much just here to give us experience rather than money?

On any given night, I’ve likely made more money through merchandise and CD sales than through collecting a door cover that might or might not be accurate or even available, depending on how many people said they were there to see me.

So use these venues to your advantage. Have a great live rehearsal. Make a handful of new fans. Sell a t-shirt. Flirt with the bartenders. Just don’t expect that you’ll get paid what you think you’re worth. Because we never do“.

(Jeff Brown, www.myspace.com/jeffbrownrocks, www.reverbnation.com/jbxl3)

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How some bands deal with club owners

If you’re interest in how bands deal with club owners, you might also wanna take a look at:

• How not to get your band booked
• What bands should know about playing in clubs

Dealing with club owners: your best bet is to put a cd together with about 3-4 of your best songs, go and talk directly to the bar owner…don’t bull shit them at all…remember, they deal with musicians all the time. Don’t be cocky, but be confident, this will help you get your foot in the door, also, if you can play the same place twice, there will surely be people who remember you and word gets out“.
Gunner – www.myspace.com/guitargunn

Club owners are always looking for someone to bring in a crowd, they sell more drinks, that’s thier bread & butter.
I only take the door. They can keep all alcohol sales. They like to hear that.
A simple contract always gets signed, 3-4 things on it only, you get the door, they keep all bar money, your sales are yours, ect. Some don’t want to sign a contract. You play at your own risk without it“.
Cowboy Elvis – www.myspace.com/cowboyelvis

Although I’ve tried for a long time to get gigs in clubs, it’s been very difficult. Maybe because we are mostly a duo and clubs like dance bands. But we’ve tried restaurants too. Seems that restaurants have a rotation of bands that play regularly. It’s hard to break into that rotation. We haven’t yet succeeded. We have to leave press kits and cd’s but can never seem to catch the owner in order to actually book a gig. They will not call you ever. They have their choice of bands – they’re not looking for more or for anything particularly special. Some clubs have acoustic nights – most of these evenings are open mic evenings. We are tired of open mics. It’s great for the venue – free music! But lousy for musicians trying to make a living. Some clubs require you to secure them an audience of anywhere from 30-100 people before they will “hire” you. It’s quite a scam – after you secure them their business, they will pay you only a percentage of the door! Sometimes this is split with other bands who’ve had to do the same thing. What a scam! We’ve tried to find managers and booking agents. We’ve gotten as far as sending our press kit and then never hearing from these guys again.
Our problem is that we don’t play covers – we do originals. We are far from mainstream even in our originals so it’s hard to find a club or venue that will hire us. We’re “not what they’re looking for”. If we were a cover band playing rock and blues we’d probably be working regularly.
Payment is hard to come by – because of all of the above. But we’ve managed to be sure to be paid for most gigs – even if it’s minimal. Here’s a good story for you…
After playing the local Pumpkin Festival for a few years for free, my partner and I decided to ask to be paid. After all, the sound man is paid and so are the staff. Why not the musicians whom, without them, the festival would be basically nothing? We approached the organizing committee and asked for payment. They responded that it was not their policy to pay musicians and if we wanted to be paid we should look elsewhere!“.
Rahel – www.rahelmusic.com

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The way bands gig swap and share shows (2)

How bands choose other bands to swap/share gigs:

I was in a band that threw a show at a teen community center about seven years ago. The other two bands on the bill were from the local high school. That way the kids would come to check out their friends playing. Turns out that the two bands hated each other. and their friends hated each other. I spent most the night trying to keep the peace and dealing with a bunch of brats. In the end, my band played middle (no big deal) and the other bands ended up trying to rip each other off and fist fighting (that is a big deal). The teen center didn’t allow another show after that. KNOW WHO YOU’RE PLAYING WITH! Ask the other bands if they’re cool with the other bands on the bill and the lineup. If the band you got a show doesn’t get you a show back, then don’t work with them anymore. Your good name is all you got. Don’t let others drag it through the mud. if you set up the show and it’s a winner, the glory is yours. If the show is a bust, so will you.
March into Paris http://www.myspace.com/marchintoparisband

We chose bands by going to their shows and seeing them live before we invite them to play with us.
Throw The Fight, http://www.myspace.com/throwthefight

I have done some gig swapping… it has worked out good for me… but I met the people at a show, so I know they are hard working and will make the gig I go to a good one. They know that of me as well… I am sure if it’s a hit or miss.
ID Required, http://www.myspace.com/idrequired

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Does gigswapping always work out?

Gig-swapping is always a risk. Bands often embellish their worth and/or bail out on their side of the deal. But it’s worth trying. If you win over any of their fans, they will talk about it and hopefully come out the next time your there.
Tims Myth, http://www.myspace.com/tmyth

When doing a swap with a band, always do a little bit of research on the other band. If this is a gigging band that has done its fair share of shows then they should know the deal.
We’ve swapped shows with a lot of out of town bands, and really, it’s just a matter of “you scratch my back and I scratch yours.” If a band comes from a long distance you hook them up with a place to sleep, hot meals, and show them a good time around your city. Make something special out of it. Just try to start good relationships with good bands in areas far away that you plan on going to as soon as you’ve earned a name for yourselves at home. One region at a time. When setting up a bill find some bands you have networked with, three or four, go to the venue you’re trying to play and present them with the bill; show the bills drawing power. (if you don’t know any bands, it’s because your networking game is weak. Don’t bother setting up a bill until you got the networking part of the game down). When you’re setting up a bill it’s always best to work out who’s paying for what as far as the PA goes. If you’re playing at a place without a PA. (and never play at a place without a PA unless you’re setting up a show at the teen community center or something like that. If you’re playing at a bar with no PA, it’s because they don’t do regular shows. No regular shows equals no walk in traffic there to hear bands, and the bar regulars aren’t there to hear bands.
March into Paris, http://www.myspace.com/marchintoparisband

Most of the time bands are always down and don’t fuck around with gig swapping too much, cause it gives them a chance to go play in a new area or city and get good promotion and what not.
Texas armed to the teeth, http://www.myspace.com/texasarmedtotheteeth

We’re friends with most of the bands in town, so they ask us to play out. We don’t even play remotely the same style of music, but there’s a lot of mutual respect. Once you’re in good with a few clubs, you can return the favor, or get someone to help fill the bill when you’re in a jam trying to find that third band to play with. Get in with those bands that see the scene as a community, not as a group of competitors. There’s a good chance there will be a lot of the latter, especially in the rock scene. The older guys are usually the ones to get to know. they’ve mostly gotten past that cocky phase.
Sylvan Lane, http://www.myspace.com/sylvanlane

We’ve hooked up touring bands and they return the favor. There are always bands that will get on a bill that aren’t that good, but it’s part of the game sometimes. I’ve also seen bands be not very good the first time you see them, but then 6 months later they slay!
(Anonymous)

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Mruff?

Finding bands = easy, choosing bands = not so easy. Any band should be wary of putting their reputation on the line for another band they’ve never seen before. Even if your musical styles aren’t exactly the same you should consider the outcome of the partnership. If they have a steady fan base and let you in on a tight venue in a city you want to access, in that case swap away. Good production tells a lot about a band. If the production is thorough then in most cases the live sound will be well finished. So if you like their music (or not, but they’re hot), they sound good and they are consolidated in your target location, there is one last thing to look into, and having looked into that thing in the first place might have rid you of all the other things: a simple video of the band playing live. This doesn’t answer all your questions but it’s the most direct impression your gonna get. Actually it’s not, sorry; the most direct is seeing them live. It’s worth taking your band out on the road for a short drive to see them play. Live is where a band shows its mettle. And you get a chance to meet their fans, which in turn could become your fans. It’s always all about the fans…”.
(gigDoggy, http://www.myspace.com/gigdoggy

More bands quotes on sharing shows and gig swapping here:

• The way bands gig swap and share shows (1)
• The way bands gig swap and share shows (3)

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